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Economic pathology 
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Post Re: Economic pathology
skippy wrote:
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"We must understand that we have nothing to understand."

If I were arguing with the guru, I would say:

"We must understand that we don't understand and we really need to understand if we expect to change our understanding."

All of this "calming of the mind" is just one tool among many that can lead to greater understanding. It does this by temporarily removing the brainwashing and mind control ("emptiness of thought, faith, and other obscuring mental constructs and projections"). I don't doubt that can help, but I don't find it very efficient. It's also dangerous, as getting into the habit of not thinking is not far removed from what the ruling sociopaths are planning for us ("banish your thoughts, embrace our thoughts").

skippy wrote:
Take a look at some of the videos, if you can, and try to watch without prejudice.

You might as well ask me to fall onto a sharpened stick dipped in dog excrement. :lol:

OK, I'll try. But when I can snatch the pebble out of your hand, I get the adoration of the fawning disciples.

skippy wrote:
If it's about controlling the mind afterall, then we better study the inner workings of the mind and why we are so easily being distracted and manipulated.

Now you're talking my language! That's exactly where I've been for many years now. It's about us regaining control over our own minds. Can you empty your mind, on your own? That is indeed a form of regaining control over your own mind, but here's a better one -- can you fill your mind, on your own, with things that matter? Nikola Tesla was pretty good at this. That's who I would choose for a guru.

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Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:12 am
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Post Re: Economic pathology
Its a balance of empirical science, Buddhism and the animation of liberty to be completely over simplified. Budddhism relates to meditation in trying to identify what is bullshit and what are your thoughts, to slowing your own thoughts and being able to receive new information. This technique is incredibly valuable when thoughts are a Eugenic commodity in mind control. And not only thoughts but emotions, and primitive emotions to boot. We have compartmentalized are primitive emotions with supposed intellectualism.

Our species has been conditioned to not know itself.

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Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:47 pm
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Post Re: Economic pathology
magamud wrote:
Our species has been conditioned to not know itself.

Yes. The "who" and "how" of that process is of immense interest to me. At the human level, it ("who" and "how") appears to be the ruling sociopaths using all the various techniques of brainwashing, programming, and mind control. But the program is so successful and long-lived that you can't help asking if there might be a higher level, one that is not human, that is also a contributing factor.

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Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:54 am
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Post Re: Economic pathology
Chögyam Trungpa, taken from the opening "scene" in Zeitgeist: The Movie (2007).



Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:11 am
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skippy wrote:
Chögyam Trungpa, taken from the opening "scene" in Zeitgeist: The Movie (2007).

What is he talking about? What is the message? I need an elucidation of this little speech because it is not saying anything to me. It is vague, disjointed, and empty. I am very curious to hear how other people experience and interpret this talk, because I am reminded of the other guru, who seemed to be deliberately messing with his audience, creating confusion rather than clarity, especially during the Q&A period, which was really revealing.

I am also reminded of The Case for Faith by Lee Strobel, which I have not read. I was given the book yesterday, but I returned it unopened today. I had an "intuition" (which Trungpa claims is spirituality) that I would be wasting my time reading it, so I decided to first research the book, read a few summaries of it, and study the reader reviews on Amazon, especially those most critical of the book. With the harshest critiques being on solid ground, and the brightest praises being mostly fluff and religious affirmation, I concluded that the book was indeed intellectually dishonest as many of the critics clearly demonstrated with their thoughtful rebuttals. Of course I thanked the book lender when I returned it, explaining what I had done and why. I also acknowledged his good intentions that were clearly behind his lending me the book.

We have a pandemic of ignorance, and my patience is often challenged by the things people believe, their poor reasoning, their foolish justifications, and their self-serving rationalizations. I am subject to all of those things myself, which is why I question everything, dismiss nothing, and stand comfortably on a position of uncertainty. I'm no guru, and I can easily see that a lot of the gurus don't qualify as gurus either. If I am wrong about that, I would like to know how I am wrong. That's why I ask for help in understanding what Trungpa is trying to tell the world, of which I am a very small part.

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Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:43 am
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Post Re: Economic pathology
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What is he talking about? What is the message? I need an elucidation of this little speech because it is not saying anything to me.



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I'm no guru

That's true.. Guru's don't argue :D

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That's why I ask for help in understanding what Trungpa is trying to tell the world, of which I am a very small part

At this level, it's up to you. Just drop the pebble in your hand, and see what happens.


Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:03 am
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Post Re: Economic pathology
Thanks for humoring me, Skippy. I know I am a slow learner, but you are doing a good job, especially by selecting the Jump Program example for me. The Matrix movie has my deepest respect.

I get the Jump Program analogy without any confusion. There is a massive deception going on called the Matrix. The deception is so encompassing and pervasive that it often takes the equivalent of a "leap of faith" to see past it, or in the case of the movie story, an actual leap across buildings. The martial arts fight scene between Neo and Morpheus is another example of seeing past the imposed rules of the artificial construct that is the Matrix.

So I went back and listened to Trungpa once again, and he's just as vacuous as before. I still can't tell what he's talking about. I'm not getting any of the ideas expressed in the Jump Program from him at all. He is so disjointed that I have problems believing that anyone can really decipher his ramblings. Hopefully you will prove me wrong, but the Jump Program example didn't do it.

skippy wrote:
That's true.. Guru's don't argue :D

Question everything.

Don't gurus question everything? They must, so there is surely an argument going on internally even if it doesn't manifest externally. In my case, I make sure it manifests externally, because that way it is shared.


skippy wrote:
At this level, it's up to you.

I think that's a delusion. I think it takes a village. I think enlightenment is a cooperative effort. Enlightenment is the same thing as true education, and education is a cooperative effort, too. That cooperative effort in education is the potential and power I saw in online forums. Of course, we have seen how forums are easily corrupted into instruments of power and control, which is exactly what Bill Ryan did to the Project Avalon forum, and what Atticus did to the Atticus1 forum, and what Richard and Celine did to the Nexus forum. That is what I have hoped to avoid here at UP. The only power I want to see is the transformative power of ideas. Transformative ideas are derived from observation, inquiry, and debate (also known as argument). If gurus don't argue, can they really be the source of transformative ideas?

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Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:03 pm
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Post Re: Economic pathology
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I have problems believing that anyone can really decipher his ramblings

So what makes thousands upon thousands of people follow real gurus? Again its a collective pov with buddhism, as with other major collective complexes. They believe in having no mind, but are still in a state of openness to receive new information. I think Chic you would have magnetized to this pov since it really is a perfect state of uncertainty. None the less, Buddhism is a path to self, as it combats itself. The jump of faith is indeed a true premise, but I understand your empirical nature with not having any reference point to jump. Perhaps if you found value in a meditative, blank mind state this narrative would begin to rise, and form personal context. I suspect we have been astoundingly conditioned, twisting and turning our primitive energy over Eons. To a point where we are indeed biological androids. Quieting the mind to anything is a very valuable trick.

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I think it takes a village.

This is true and not true. Not true in the sense that once you transcend the empirical cult and live in a super positioned state the village becomes clear. And this is not some mumbo jumbo. Have you seen empirical science trying to explain the quantum field? Everything effects everything. And matter changes form to waves, to balls and are varied by the most inanimate objects.
And I am not trying to be cryptic. I would compare it to trying to explain where quarks are going to wind up or trying to explain where intuition comes from. And I'm not trying to project some hierarchy here either. I am trying to explain a completely different paradigm that does not follow the rules of empiricism. Our thoughts transcend time and space. Our imaginations goes through infinite portals. We are verily, verily disconnected.

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Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:18 pm
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Post Re: Economic pathology
magamud wrote:
So what makes thousands upon thousands of people follow real gurus?

Probably the same thing that makes millions upon millions of people follow false gurus. We should remember that about 80% of humans are Followers.

magamud wrote:
I think Chic you would have magnetized to this pov since it really is a perfect state of uncertainty.

My pursuit is definitely not to achieve the perfect state of uncertainty. My pursuit is to know the truth. Knowing suggests certainty. A position of uncertainty is a necessary defense when one is inundated by propaganda, disinformation, falsehoods, half-truths, spin, and other forms of mind control. Like any other human, I don't like uncertainty, but I recognize its value under the present circumstances.

magamud wrote:
The jump of faith is indeed a true premise, but I understand your empirical nature with not having any reference point to jump. Perhaps if you found value in a meditative, blank mind state this narrative would begin to rise, and form personal context.

Of course it would, but that doesn't mean it is valid or desirable. I am reminded of drug addicts. I have no doubt that if I just "made the leap" into the world of self-pleasuring through chemical substances, the addictive narrative would rise, personal context would form, and I would join the ranks of hopelessly trapped drug addicts. But I have reasons to avoid that path.

magamud wrote:
To a point where we are indeed biological androids. Quieting the mind to anything is a very valuable trick.

But it is a means to an end, and not the end itself. The goal is not to end up with an empty mind. The goal is to have a properly filled mind. Quieting the barrage of trash from external sources can help one see the trash for what it is and perhaps better recognize what is not trash, but it is only one small step on the path, and other paths can take you to the same desired destination without ever taking that particular step. Such as the path of recognizing the value of uncertainty. That can serve the same function as emptying the mind. It's all about filtering good information from an ocean of bad information.

magamud wrote:
This is true and not true. Not true in the sense that once you transcend the empirical cult and live in a super positioned state the village becomes clear.

I agree with "true and not true", but not with your explanation of "not true". If you transcend the empirical cult, your perspective of the village does indeed change, and you may interpret that difference as clarity. But it is not necessarily clarity in the sense of "truth". It could simply be a more convincing illusion than the one you left behind.

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Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:18 am
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Post Re: Economic pathology
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I know I am a slow learner.
It takes time. If not in this lifetime, it will be in the next :D

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So I went back and listened to Trungpa once again, and he's just as vacuous as before. I still can't tell what he's talking about
That's ok, while these words are beyond intellectual reasoning alone. There exist a surplus of intelligence not accessible at the level of reasoning. Indeed a jump of faith is needed to get there. Where? There. Trungpa used to call it crazy-wisdom, which adds a sort of newness, freshness to every unique situation. A rebirth, a new start, as such, of every single moment. The heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing. Good luck sir!



Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:01 am
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