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Certainty 
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Post Re: Certainty
How can we be certain that we have the facts when we are clearly being deceived?

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It has become routine for the mainstream media including network TV to present fake images and footage of protest movements.

This process of manipulating the truth and presenting fake images is nothing new. When it is discovered, CNN or the BBC will invariably apologize for having used the “wrong image”, from the “wrong country” from its extensive archives. -- source

(The Routine Use of Fake Images and Video Footage by the Western Media)

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:21 pm
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Post Re: Certainty
How can we be certain that we have the facts when we are clearly being deceived?

Quote:
It has become routine for the mainstream media including network TV to present fake images and footage of protest movements.

This process of manipulating the truth and presenting fake images is nothing new. When it is discovered, CNN or the BBC will invariably apologize for having used the “wrong image”, from the “wrong country” from its extensive archives. -- source

(The Routine Use of Fake Images and Video Footage by the Western Media)



Reasonable certainty is a beast apart from absolute certainty. In many cases, it exists so far removed from absolute certainty that it is often confused for uncertainty. That's when discernment must weigh in. If it does not, then the consequences of unwarranted uncertainty will prevail.

Pax

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:35 pm
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UncleZook wrote:
Reasonable certainty is a beast apart from absolute certainty.

How can we be reasonably certain that we have the facts when we are clearly being deceived?

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:39 pm
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UncleZook wrote:
Reasonable certainty is a beast apart from absolute certainty.

How can we be reasonably certain that we have the facts when we are clearly being deceived?


We know we are clearly being deceived BECAUSE we can discern the lies from the truths. This threshold level of discernment if we possess it - and we must possess it because we can clearly see the deceptions, as you rightly point out - then elevates our convictions in other areas, indeed, in most areas, to reasonable certainty. Simultaneously, it detaches us from unwarranted uncertainty.

The logic is self-contained, Chico.

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Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:33 am
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UncleZook wrote:
We know we are clearly being deceived BECAUSE we can discern the lies from the truths.

Only some of them.

UncleZook wrote:
This threshold level of discernment if we possess it - and we must possess it ...

No, there is no threshold level of discernment. There are only degrees of discernment, and they are only as good as the reliability of the information we are working with.


UncleZook wrote:
...because we can clearly see the deceptions, as you rightly point out - then elevates our convictions in other areas, indeed, in most areas, to reasonable certainty.

And reasonable certainty does not guarantee truth. It is only a measure of your belief that you hold the truth. And as I often point out, the more certain you are, the more likely it is that you will turn out to be wrong.

UncleZook wrote:
Simultaneously, it detaches us from unwarranted uncertainty.

"Unwarranted uncertainty", eh? I guess you don't accept my maxim, "Question everything and dismiss nothing." Well, obviously you don't, as your penchant for certainty is well known.

UncleZook wrote:
The logic is self-contained, Chico.

As is the Matrix. The path of logic is littered with false prophets.

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Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:52 am
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Post Re: Certainty
UncleZook wrote:
We know we are clearly being deceived BECAUSE we can discern the lies from the truths.

Only some of them.


The most important truths are usually discerned with ease ... because there are usually well documented. Also, because the closer you get to the important truths, the larger the vilification of the truthseekers.

There exists a simple four-step quality measurement of discernment. First, they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win. ( Paraphrasing, of course.)

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UncleZook wrote:
This threshold level of discernment if we possess it - and we must possess it ...

No, there is no threshold level of discernment. There are only degrees of discernment, and they are only as good as the reliability of the information we are working with.


Thresholds exist for everything in the Universe. The point where it injures the truth by remaining uncertain ... is a threshold for discernment. Again, all systems are logically self-contained, Chico, else they wouldn't be systems.
When the logic fails, the system fails. Even the system of discernment.

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UncleZook wrote:
...because we can clearly see the deceptions, as you rightly point out - then elevates our convictions in other areas, indeed, in most areas, to reasonable certainty.

And reasonable certainty does not guarantee truth. It is only a measure of your belief that you hold the truth. And as I often point out, the more certain you are, the more likely it is that you will turn out to be wrong.


When genuine capable truthseekers pursue observable evidence, certainty is the cumulative result of data points and coupling terms. Of course, when others pursue observable evidence - with biases in their backpack - then certainty does not necessarily translate into correctness. Here we are looking at reasonable certainty ... and that is available to all genuine capable truthseekers (and it's even available to those with lesser abilities and ambitions). Here, reasonable certainty is what allows things to move forward in the right direction. Without it, there are infinite paths into a void. e.g random locomotion. The power pyramid wants things randomized, because the right direction is functional kryptonite to these red-caped supermen.

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UncleZook wrote:
Simultaneously, it detaches us from unwarranted uncertainty.

"Unwarranted uncertainty", eh? I guess you don't accept my maxim, "Question everything and dismiss nothing." Well, obviously you don't, as your penchant for certainty is well known.


Nope. Your maxim is not tailored for human organization. The better maxim is to "Question everything and dismiss that which lacks substance." We are the arbiters of our own inquiries and dismissals. Some of us have taken arbitration to an artform. Others are stuck waving digging sticks over empty anthills. As it were.

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UncleZook wrote:
The logic is self-contained, Chico.

As is the Matrix. The path of logic is littered with false prophets.


Maybe so. But those prophets are vastly outnumbered by critical thinkers, who rely on the gift of observation and logical dot connection ... as opposed to the gift of clairvoyance and prognostication.

Critical thinkers share kinship with astronomers, not astrologers. Those who prefer unwarranted uncertainty are better off reading horoscopes, for horoscopes require no logic ... just a commitment to belief.


Pax

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Last edited by UncleZook on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:34 pm
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Post Re: Certainty
:lol: This is rich, two proven forum liars discussing their favorite subject! :lol:

Unclezook--busted!

Chicodoodoo--busted!

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Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:25 pm
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Post Re: Certainty
UncleZook wrote:
Also, because the closer you get to the important truths, the larger the vilification of the truthseekers.

That is a interesting yardstick, one that I have experienced on the Quark forum, where Kolin and club (Andy among them) have done everything they can think of to vilify Chicodoodoo.

UncleZook wrote:
Thresholds exist for everything in the Universe. The point where it injures the truth by remaining uncertain ... is a threshold for discernment.

In the human mind, most thresholds are subjective, and therefore inexact, which means they aren't really thresholds. Determining injury to the truth is also subjective. Even our concept of truth is subjective.

UncleZook wrote:
When genuine capable truthseekers pursue observable evidence, certainty is the cumulative result of data points and coupling terms. Of course, when others pursue observable evidence - with biases in their backpack - then certainty does not necessarily translate into correctness.

No, it's not "others", it's each of us and all of us. We all have biases in our backpacks. In my opinion, what you have stated is correct with this one adjustment.
UncleZook wrote:
The better maxim is to "Question everything and dismiss that which lacks substance."

Interesting. That essentially used to be my maxim, but then I realized it is an oxymoron. If you are going to question everything, you must also question your dismissals, which means you can never really dismiss anything.

UncleZook wrote:
We are the arbiters of our own inquiries and dismissals.

Agreed, and therein lies the problem. We operate from a subjective position, with limited knowledge, and with biases in the backpack.

UncleZook wrote:
But those prophets are vastly outnumbered by critical thinkers, who rely on the gift of observation and logical dot connection ... as opposed to the gift of clairvoyance and prognostication.

I see it differently. The prophets greatly outnumber the real critical thinkers. Most people believe they are critical thinkers, and for this reason they become the prophets, so certain are they of their critical thinking skills.

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Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:22 pm
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andywight wrote:
This is rich, two proven forum liars discussing their favorite subject! :lol:

Unclezook--busted!

Chicodoodoo--busted!

Oh my, you must be feeling left out. We should recognize your lies, too!

There's a place reserved for that.

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Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:09 pm
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Post Re: Certainty
The topic of certainty and its warrants (or absence thereof) ... is getting old, Chico.

We'll have to agree to disagree, for I can't seem to persuade you ... to the fact that most human endeavors collectively (and individually) are carried out on reasonable warrants of certainty, not absolute warrants. Reasonable warrants are actually far removed from absolute warrants.

And it's two-way traffic.

The criminals commit their acts on reasonable warrants of secrecy, not absolute warrants, which is why many are caught; and the criminals expect to be discovered by reasonable warrants of certainty, not absolute warrants..

In the end, there is no great secrecy required for criminals to act (some will rob you in broad daylight) ... and there is no great certainty required for criminals to be punished (indeed, the existing justice system requires very little certainty to obtain a conviction). That's they way it's always been.

So why draft elevated standards of certainty to deal with power pyramid shills that the system sends down? High standards of certainty to combat low standards of secrecy ... I mean, they're not even trying to hide their false flag operations anymore, how bold they have become, and how meek we have become in allowing them to be bold in their crimes ... is a fool's birthright. But hey, let it be.


Pax

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Flight that sends into the clouds brings wings to rest upon the boughs. Then further down to the liquid lawn, to serve as sentries for the gliding swan. Curve, a perfect turning of the line between here and Heaven, with extensions into infinitum.


Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:34 pm
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