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Prop 37: Proposition or Propaganda? Remembering Prohibition 
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Post Re: Prop 37: Proposition or Propaganda? Remembering Prohibi
UncleZook wrote:
I had you pegged as a high-end intellectual capable of deep cognitive function ... far too prematurely.

So... You were wrong about Chico. There's at least one chink in your discernment armor, isn't there? I wonder what else you are wrong about.


Not wrong about the size of your brain ... but your usage of it. :jest:

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Good work making it all about the messenger, as usual. If you ever actually focus on the message with the same tenacity, we might all actually learn something from you.


Yes, yes. Par for the course, Chico. I gave you quite a bit of content to rebut - as I usually do in my posts - but because I also included some messenger evaluation, you used that as a segue out of an indefensible position - as you usually do in your rebuttals of my post. The archives are littered with your deafening silence on the salient points I make and your preference for form over function in your rebuttals. Emily Post must be up somewhere on your ancestry tree.

For the record, your hypocrisy is glaring. When I made the Assange arguments, you argued for the appearance of obvious reality as opposed to the reality itself ... and now, in the Prop 37 arguments, you argue against the appearance of obvious reality and state that Prop 37 is nothing short of reality itself. Such certainty from a man who questions the certainty of others. You are the quintessential know-it-all, Chico. I bow in your presence.

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virtual all ballot initiatives at the state level are sponsored by special interests and designed with special interests in mind. It's only the subterfuge that makes it appear that grassroots citizenry is involved in designing the initiative or executing an informed will.

That does happen sometimes, but it doesn't always happen. I've seen grassroots efforts succeed and have actually been part of them, like this one.


Very few things in man-made endeavors always happen. Exceptions and rules, as it were. Of course, you once again seek refuge in absolutist posturing when the probability (of the relative case) is highly unfavorable to your arguments. Grassroots movements by in large ... are controlled oppositions designed by the state apparatus. They are rife with apparatchiks, voluntary and involuntary, that are mendacious and clueless, respectively. The exceptional cases to the rule of controlled opposition are not that significant in the grand scheme of things, to warrant mention.

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Only when one begins to understand that democracy has never existed to benefit the people and has only existed (in mitigated degrees) to serve the power pyramid ... can one effectively bid goodbye to their plush animal toy and climb down from the treehouse.

Oversimplified binary thinking again. Democracy has long existed to benefit the people. However, it can be easily and clandestinely gamed (especially simple-majority democracy) by scheming sociopaths, which is why democracy ends up having a bad name.


Your polemics have value as pep talk, I'm sure. But the reality is that democracy is controlled by the state and for state interests (which are essentially power pyramid interests in 2012).

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they cannot be expected to deliver anything that the system does not want delivered. <------------ That is the sobering reality.

I agree that the system is very corrupted and has been getting steadily worse for many generations. Real solutions can come from the system, but they will not be allowed to fruition in uncorrupted form. The "Audit the Fed" legislation is an example.


At this late stage in the game, I'm not so much interested in theories of real solutions as real solutions themselves.

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In short, one woman on the street has done more for 9/11/2001 awareness - and the quest for truths - than two men in their high tower seats.

Perhaps for 9/11 awareness, but what about overall? You are forced to oversimplify here because you are working with incomplete information, meaning you have no real idea what impact any of these three have had on our collective future. I can tell you that Kucinich and Ron Paul have had more impact on my life than McKinney, even though she has had an impact as well. There may be millions more that can say the same.


Maybe yours. But they've had zilch effect where it counts, e.g. in the minds of the people. Unless critical mass of informed individuals is attained, we are doomed. And Kooch and Paul have done far less for critical mass than McKinney, IMO. In fact, one can argue that they make the promises and give the hope ... because doing that much (or little) essentially keeps the masses in a cul-de-sac circular. As it were.

Again, real revolution will arrive by expanding the minds of the masses ... not by expanding their hope chests.

Pax Cognitas

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Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:31 am
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Post Re: Prop 37: Proposition or Propaganda? Remembering Prohibi
UncleZook wrote:
I gave you quite a bit of content to rebut - as I usually do in my posts

Oh, I must have missed it. Can you summarize with a concise, bulleted list?

BTW, your bling-bling dance around the meaning of "obvious" just didn't qualify as an argument of any substance, in my book. The rest of your post was just more character assassination, so any real debate was aborted before conception.

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Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:57 am
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Post Re: Prop 37: Proposition or Propaganda? Remembering Prohibi
andywight wrote:
Can you explain how the mandatory labeling of GMO food around the word has benefited the likes of Monsanto n Co?

To label, or not to label, that is the question.

Andy asks the key question here. Monsanto has a consistent history of falsifying and hiding information from the public. It is THE classic sociopathic company that maximizes profits without any concern for public safety. I doubt any independent party would argue otherwise. Qui bono? Clearly, Monsanto benefits if it can sell the public unhealthy GMO foods without the public knowing. Clearly, the public suffers if it doesn't know it is consuming harmful products.

Is Monsanto running a false-flag with this issue? While we shouldn't dismiss the possibility, the evidence is extremely weak and entirely conjecture. Did Monsanto try to keep European countries from labeling GMO food by campaigning against its own company interests? Does Monsanto ever work against its own company interests? The preponderance of evidence says "No", but if you can find good evidence saying otherwise, you might have a reason to argue for a false-flag.

The argument that debating the labeling of GMO foods detracts from the question of their fundamental safety and ethical usage is, to use Zook's term, legerdemain. The demand to label GMO foods is a direct result of the perceived danger of GMO products and the unethical business practices of Monsanto.

From what I can see, Zook's alarm over Proposition 37 passing is much ado about nothing.

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Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:15 pm
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Post Re: Prop 37: Proposition or Propaganda? Remembering Prohibi

From what I can see, Zook's alarm over Proposition 37 passing is much ado about nothing.

" Much ado about nothing" you're being far to kind here, UncleZook's posts are far more insidious than this!

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Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:39 pm
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Post Re: Prop 37: Proposition or Propaganda? Remembering Prohibi
andywight wrote:
"Much ado about nothing" you're being far to kind here, UncleZook's posts are far more insidious than this!

Criticism acknowledged. I am being kind, but that closing quote fit nicely with the Shakespearean theme that I opened with. So in effect, I did it for Zook.

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Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:55 pm
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Post Re: Prop 37: Proposition or Propaganda? Remembering Prohibi
Whole Foods Hidden Camera GMO Sting 17:07

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR9H7NgO ... r_embedded

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Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:18 pm
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Post Re: Prop 37: Proposition or Propaganda? Remembering Prohibi
magamud wrote:
Whole Foods Hidden Camera GMO Sting 17:07

Good find, Mags. Dynamite stuff!

Follow the money. Money is perhaps the biggest conflict of interest humanity has ever seen.

With 9/11, Zook would surely agree to follow the money. With Proposition 37, Zook says following the money is suddenly a false-flag. I think Zook is wrong here. The placement of money is consistent with the business interests of the companies involved.

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Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:20 pm
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Post Re: Prop 37: Proposition or Propaganda? Remembering Prohibi
magamud wrote:
Whole Foods Hidden Camera GMO Sting 17:07

Good find, Mags. Dynamite stuff!

Follow the money. Money is perhaps the biggest conflict of interest humanity has ever seen.

With 9/11, Zook would surely agree to follow the money. With Proposition 37, Zook says following the money is suddenly a false-flag. I think Zook is wrong here. The placement of money is consistent with the business interests of the companies involved.


Apples are apples. Oranges are oranges. Binary thinking is binary thinking.

Thanks, Chico, for misapplying yet again the one-shoe-fits-all cobblering. Eating the chocolate vanilla cake, and calling it one or the other, as it were. Oversimplified analysis.

Though there are times when following the money leads to argument circulars, much of the time it leads back to the financiers of operations under scrutiny, whether they be Faustian in nature or simply fool's pleasure in measure. 9/11/2001 needs no new introduction in this regard, nor are money trails necessary for conclusions there. Part of the preponderance, but not a necessary part. As for Prop 37, outlining caution in advancing is not a sudden decree anchored in the certainty of a false flag - though the binary thinkers would not have it any other way - but a torchlight to carve a path in the uncertainty of darkness. The pattern is there ... in the ruts of the road of true and tried journeys ... that one would be remiss not to comment on them. There is no hard evidence to either support Prop 37 or oppose Prop 37 ... unlike 9/11/2001 ... but there is sufficient pattern to oblige us to slow down the march into possible (probable??) madness.

To wit, I see enough pattern to warrant bringing attention. You do not. Your intuition against mine, Chico. IMO, the potential for false flag placement of money is very high ... as is the (inter)connectivity of the aforementioned business interests. This interconnectedness is not random. At least, we must assume this is the case ... for the evidence of isolated independent companies spending their corporate advertising budgets against Prop 37 is pollyannish at best. The big spenders against Prop 37 are well-coordinated. A significant portion of the pro-Prop37ers are also well-coordinated. But because this twin coordination is largely slanted against prop 37, that is no proof that Prop 37 injures the coordination. If anything, it speaks to the contrary.

Much of the public is being steered away from the important issues of GMO toxicity to its tacit approval by shifting critical judgment to issues of marketing. That appears to be the larger goal here. Which is perhaps why the coordination attacks prop 37 in the overall imbalance, for that gives the masses something to cheer for (in counterpoint). Alas, when the masses start cheering, the mob rules. And when the mob rules, there are usually a few well-placed instigators steering direction.

In effect, giving the mob a small victory (Prop 37 by counterpoint, e.g. the corporate coordination tipping heavily against Prop 37) ... yet gaining for themselves the larger victory (the shifting of the debate from their Achillean Heel of toxicity to our Achillean Heel of marketing). C'mon, how stupid do they think we are, Chico? How stupid do you think we are to not recognize the high potential for legerdemain here? I mean, these publicly available spending lists are being promoted hard and heavy by the alternative media and, too, the mainstream establishment ... and that is a free clue that Denmark is perfuming. And the smell ain't pretty. To wit, they want us to know that Prop 37 is being opposed by the rabid wolves amongst us ... so that we will go out and support it.


Pax Postcard From India

ps: Many a child has been steered into behavior by reverse psychology. That pattern is as old as humanity. Yet you would deny its presence here?? You can do better than that, Chico. :jest:

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Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:25 am
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Post Re: Prop 37: Proposition or Propaganda? Remembering Prohibi
UncleZook wrote:

-Another long post, again with nothing of any substance to do with the real issues surrounding "Prop 37"-

Pax Postcard From Langley


Can you explain how the mandatory labeling of GMO food around the word has benefited the likes of Monsanto n Co?

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Last edited by andywight on Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:15 am
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Post Re: Prop 37: Proposition or Propaganda? Remembering Prohibi
UncleZook wrote:
Thanks, Chico, for misapplying yet again the one-shoe-fits-all cobblering. Eating the chocolate vanilla cake, and calling it one or the other, as it were. Oversimplified analysis.

Give us the supporting evidence, then make your conclusions. Don't give us your conclusions, neglect the evidence, and call it another day of superior discernment.

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To wit, I see enough pattern to warrant bringing attention. You do not.

A very bad synopsis, Zook. Attention was given to your theory, as is required by a philosophy of "question everything, dismiss nothing". But the supporting evidence was too weak to be credible, so your theory was rejected until better evidence is forthcoming. If you feel your theory still has legs, bring us the evidence.

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The big spenders against Prop 37 are well-coordinated. A significant portion of the pro-Prop37ers are also well-coordinated. But because this twin coordination is largely slanted against prop 37, that is no proof that Prop 37 injures the coordination. If anything, it speaks to the contrary.

The "twin coordination" is only evidence of conflicting interest. If anything, it doesn't speak for or against your theory. You're grasping at straws here.

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Much of the public is being steered away from the important issues of GMO toxicity to its tacit approval by shifting critical judgment to issues of marketing.

We've already addressed this, Zook. The question of GMO toxicity is not in the hands of the people, but in the hands of the government agencies that have been co-opted and outright purchased by the sociopathic business interests. Thus, that battle is already lost. Requiring the identification of GMO ingredients is still within the hands of the people (maybe), and so that is where their efforts are rightly focused.

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I mean, these publicly available spending lists are being promoted hard and heavy by the alternative media and, too, the mainstream establishment ... and that is a free clue that Denmark is perfuming.

Again, that is only evidence of divided interests, and does not support or refute your theory.

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To wit, they want us to know that Prop 37 is being opposed by the rabid wolves amongst us ... so that we will go out and support it.

Another misdirected "to wit". Explain how defeating Proposition 37 would protect our health.

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Pax Postcard From India

If you take pictures and record the highlights of your travels, I'll make you a mini web page to share with all, like I did for Andy's boat trip and my bicycle routine.

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ps: Many a child has been steered into behavior by reverse psychology. That pattern is as old as humanity. Yet you would deny its presence here?? You can do better than that, Chico. :jest:

Reverse psychology is the exception to steering children rather than the rule. I don't deny its presence, I just don't see any good evidence to support that exception in this case.

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Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:18 am
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